When batteries go boom - Emergency equipment and protocols

Right, two core points from the above vids:

  1. Treat it like a gas leak … ventilation is very important as it may reduce the risk of explosion.
  2. The colour of the smoke … just GTFO!
  3. Water remains, in QUANTITIES, the best of BAD OPTIONS … so I’m NOT that far off with the submerging of the entire bank IF one has 1) the right quantity and 2) speed to fill it - I think. But then point 2, and 1, the smoke.

Having the cells in a metal tub, where when filled, the water is immediately at the individual cells’ sides, is my thought too. As for the one spot in the one video, my extrapolation of that is batts in a cabinet + water over it = hosing water on the house roof to put out a kitchen fire …

Bottom line: Lifepo4 is the safer tech, but still an issue.

@mmaritz - your garage is tickets btw. :innocent:

Do others have any thoughts?

:wink:

I am wondering about a solution like this, a temp sensor per cell:

I read, quick squizz, that the time it takes to actually register a temp increase vs to it is too late, the main downfall.

Nice info here:

I think first it must be emphasized that the likelihood of thermal runaway is low - especially with LiFePO4.

I would also caution to draw too many conclusions about the approach to a home-based battery from the EV info. For one, the vehicle modules are likely designed to a standard that requires reduced chance of cell-to-cell propagation of thermal runaway.

Something else that I think one might miss in thinking of being this guy

Groenie
…is that unless one is present when things start going south (venting starts etc.) you are likely to be faced with, at best, a room filled with noxious and very likely toxic gas (this is for me the most relevant from the vids that show how even smallish batteries can make a crap load of “smoke”).

So, to have the water grave as an option would probably require

  • A) that the battery is considerate enough to go poof while you are watching it.
  • B) that you have your battery, like a Bond villain, on a trap door above the pit filled with crocodiles/sharks/piranhas.

To fill the container with water option will require you having the hose at the ready near the battery. Again no time to run outside, curse the gardener/wife/children for once actually putting away the hosepipe like you asked, then running back into the house with the water turned on, not slipping on the now wet kitchen tiles, and within 3 meters of the battery come to dead stop realising “oh yes, I had to cut off a section after the dog chewed the connector to pieces”. Now you have to hope you do not cause any further shorting with the water, and when cramming the gardena hose into the battery realise that you have to keep on feeding it like solder since it keeps melting at the tip.

Also, running around with water around your own electricity generation equipment is possibly inviting another emergency other than the potential fire. (also makes one think a bit more about the requirements for something like a fireman’s switch?)

So, I think the best one can do is

  • have the system installed electrically as safe as possible.
  • be mindful of overcharging/very low SOC/charge rate.
  • if possible do not have batteries in/near parts of the house that might make exit difficult if smoke/vapour should become an issue - alternatively have another exit option (something that can be an issue with security gates in passages etc.).
  • where possible install batteries with at least 1.5-2 meter clearance from other flammable material (if the batteries are “burning” without setting anything else on fire - the overall outcome should be way better).
  • have some audible warning options like smoke/gas detectors near the batteries (especially for if things happen while sleeping).
  • When exited the building - keep a safe distance of at least 50+ meters (?) to not become this guy

Let me think about it.

Here are my batts, ±18 out of 24h … so it depends a lot on circumstances. :slightly_smiling_face:

“Those” people who complain about Victron being “loud”, the new range of inverters, a Xeon Intel server kicks their butt into “noise” … just saying. :innocent:

This is how I keep it “quiet” … installed another fan in the drive bays.
The moment I put the cover back on … eish.

BUT!!! … I agree with a LOT you say @Village_Idiot … it is not an exact “science”.

Ok, I thought about it:

  1. I can regularly check the cell temps by hand when charging, as the cells are easily reachable. Part of the Maintenance Checks if you want. Ideally, get a 18-cell temp probe, one temp probe per cell. Log the data.
  2. Get a smoke detection thingy inside the enclosure - the right one for Lifepo4 gasses.
  3. If it goes off, visually verify (from a distance) that it is the bank, and IF it is the case:
    3.1) rush to open the doors to get people out,
    3.2) switch on fans from a distance
    3.3) Switch off the main DB AND solar system if there is a chance.
    3.4) GTFO …
    The sanest plan A.

Remember, Lifepo4 cells don’t just go boom suddenly, out of the blue.

There is a cause, physical damage, faulty cell, overcharged… one can “see that”, it bulges, or before that, feel the cell is hotter than its “maatjies” … one can mitigate the risk with regular maintenance checks.

How one does that with an enclosed unit under warranty, have to trust the manufacturer that they have enough safeties in place. All one can do there is check the case for bulging.

much like a bored Jack Russel, Murphy can do plenty in 6 hours :wink:

one problem is if anything else is possibly on fire you are adding an oxygen source - is why the Swedish ex-fireman said possibly ventilation.

One measure that I might consider is a fire blanket and this will obviously not help with wall mounted batteries. Also, the general use fire blankets might not standup to full on thermal runaway (at least NMC appears to burn through it but i think LiFePO4 should be less hot).

But in an observed start of things going ffssss I think a fire blanket, or two, might be a relatively lowish cost tool that might help reduce oxygen supply and help contain flame/sparks etc. away from other material.

Firefighters used a fire blanket on a vehicle and worked for a little bit.

Lifepo4 creates its own oxygen, so I don’t think a fire blanket will make a difference.

If there is one thing I took away from the vids, the “smoke” = “treat it like a gas fire”.

Until more information/facts/solutions/experience becomes available.

EDIT:
If there is a fire, as seen in the vids, one is fooked. Runaway comes to mind. Open doors or te not.
There will be a lot of smoke, it contains hydrogen, that garage door … THAT is a real problem.
That house in Germany - fire blanket, would have been useless. Venting would have helped.

The time when the batts are at their lowest. :wink:

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Does it though? What I’ve read is precisely that the oxygen is bonded quite tight in that phosphate molecule and you need quite a bit of heat to get it out. In other words, by the time that happens, the initial “thermal runaway” has progressed far enough that the house is already on fire, and getting close enough to anything to put a blanket on is probably not going to happen.

Edit: Found an interesting video that sort of explains this. LFP fails at a higher temperature, when the separator material fails.

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Why not suck all the air (O2) out of an airtight box… So BMS, batteries etc in the box and then then you either add a non flammable gas or suck out air… No air - limited fire…

possibly the fire risk is lowered but then you have the potential of “explosion” because of the built-up gas. Dealing with lihium battery based fires truly looks like a developing field that does not yet have definitive protocols.

Analysis of one of the landmark incidents that appears to influence thinking on dealing with these fires. At a stage it appeared like the fire was contained - things went sideways (literally - including firefighters) a short while after opening doors.

EDIT: obviously this specific incident was BESS scale battery but I think South Africa might still add lots of data on residential battery fires because of the apparent higher number and relative size of residential batteries here vs the rest of the world.

EDIT2: @TheTerribleTriplet and @plonkster are correct - in terms of the fire blanket. Getting people and animals out of the building and a safe distance away is probably the best approach in the unfortunate (and likely low chance) case of a residential lithium based battery starting to smoke/gas/vent - signalling possible thermal runaway.

Ditto.

Why do lithium-ion batteries catch fire? | Fire Protection Association.

To be clear, I am not (at least not any more… thanks for that!) saying it is not a fire risk. I’m saying the “makes its own oxygen” is more a thing of the NMC packs than LFP. For LFP, the oxygen needs a bit more energy to join the party, and by the time you have enough heat to get that done, the bigger issue is that the separators in the battery are melting and causing a short circuit. Now you have a lithium metal fire, and all bets are off! At this point, the oxygen joins the party as well, almost a little late, but since you cannot get close to the thing anyway, any plan to use a fire extinguisher or a blanket is off the table anyway.

However you look at it, if something starts adding heat to the party, even if it is well vented, you’re done.

The risk of explosion, as with that house in Germany, is however greatly reduced with good ventilation.

Found this:
A Lithium-Ion battery on fire | If.

There we go … clever!

Now car manufacturers can add a hole, to force water into the battery to not have to use an axe to make a hole?

This guy just having some fun:

Actual lithium in water, bad bad move - we won’t strip our cells:

I’m right back to the submerging, removing the sharks, dumping the battery into a watery grave using a gas mask … but it is a pipe dream, complications abound.

Not to forget the risks of an explosion …

Contemplating adding an extractor fan to “vent” the gasses outside the house … remove the explosion risk … suck it all out baby!

But it must be a potent extractor fan.

Where the system is, currently, I need an extractor fan in any event, dead spot, no cross ventilation, so it is a dual purpose … let me think on it some more … a LOT more.

There’s a debate going on in the UK right now (I watch lots of Sky news, so I tend to be quite well up on what Starmer ate for breakfast and what Sunak has to say about that). The debate is because there is now evidence before some select committee that the boiler industry has been running a co-ordinated disinformation campaign against heat pumps. There are various parts to the unhappiness

  1. Government (and opposition) are keen that everybody start using heat pumps
  2. Customers are not able to make best judgements based on whatever criteria are important to them.
  3. Anti-competitive

Anyway, I see all sorts of stuff pro and con any new (or newly advocated) technology. Some of it is along the lines of the “the illumunati are controlling this market and want to enslave you”, some has lots of stuff going bang, or demonstrated as being bang proof, or has Jeremy Clarkson allegedly cooking the script because he thinks such-and-such a car is a bit woke and namby pamby so he wants it to fail spectacularly in the middle of the Stig’s hot lap.

The real problem with this is the amount of validation you have to do for any information presented to you. Nearly all the time.

The malarkey around manipulating the Brexit vote via social media was the hammering of several nails into the coffin of my innocence. Now I am cynical about nearly everything.

I recently read a book about how journalism works in the real world, and the author said something along the lines of there being two subjects where everything is so manipulated by interest groups that whatever you read, whether you agree with it or not, whether it seems plausible or not, whatever station broadcasts it or whatever paper prints it, is almost certainly not the truth. These two subjects are climate change and the Middle East.

Now add to that the British royals because they are busy photoshopping their own publicity photos (true) and there’s a body double for the Princess of Wales (alleged). All you know is that whatever they present to you is probably manipulated (sometimes not so carefully).

It’s very depressing. I am appreciative of papers like the Guardian that are running a series of articles that examine, one at a time, the myths around EVs. Or organisations like Africa Check who keep tabs on what our politicians and political commentators are saying. But all of this checking costs money. If these schemes collapse or have to put up pay walls we will have to go on gut feel or spend lots of our own time checking everything.

I have seen a few cases lately where folks go solar, but they’re not allowing those lithium things anywhere on their property because they go bang all the time.

They prove this to you by showing you a whatsapp message on one of the multiple smart phones in their home.

Eish.

Thanks. I have blown off some steam.

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I have heard from someone who heard from someone who knows someone who said that happened to them.
That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen though, so I give these stories the benefit of the doubt.

LP gas bottles go bang as well, so we put them in a setting that minimizes that happening and put in damage control measures to deal with the off-chance it does.
People wouldn’t twice about building a generator or gas bottle enclosure outside, so why not treat batteries with the same reverence?

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Indeed. Even if it doesn’t take much effort most of the time – Google is remarkably efficient at finding stuff if you know how to ask – it takes such a lot of energy. Just going completely cynical and disbelieving everything saves so much time!

Lately I decided I’m okay with my phone listening all the time, because it saves me so much time. We’d be having a discussion about something, over dinner, and I can just go: “Hey google, how old was Winston Churchill when he died?” and the electronic assistant will actually answer it out loud. Really useful…

Anyway, I thought I would copy something here I wrote on social media last night, where the underlying topic is my fascination with the overlap between the anti-movements. People who disbelieve climate change, are often also anti-EV and anti-vax. The arguments are often similar, the boogeymen behind the hoax is shared, it all sounds so similar that it melts into one, for myself, also including flat earthers (another topic the social media algorithms decided I should see more of… probably because I am not the only one who sees the overlap).

Anyway, without further ado… here is my ramblings from late last night, slightly adjusted for context:

— snip —

That’s exactly the part that fascinates me, the very high level of distrust. That in itself isn’t wrong, there is a certain level that is healthy, but it also seems trivial to me that too much distrust is harmful.

To use a possibly divisive example: Flat earthers. I used to think they don’t really exist and those who claim to be of that school of thought are merely being satirical. Turns out I was wrong about that: This is a group with an extreme level of distrust, to the extent that they will only trust that which they can see with their own eyes. The earth looks flat, therefore it is flat. In many ways, I don’t see it as a failure of “science”, but rather what happens when something good (insisting on empirical proof) is taken to the extreme. Or in philosophical terms, first science becomes scientism (the belief that only science gives true answers), and then when scientism is taken a step further, it becomes flat-earthism, where only science (or research) you’ve done yourself gives true answers.

In the same manner, that distrust has led to a place where we now distrust epidemiologists, the medical profession, statisticians, and so forth. Strangely, we do trust some guy with a YouTube channel though. I know I’m being critical here… I do apologise.

For myself, I also did “my own homework”. The trouble with doing your own homework, is you have to be acutely aware that you are not qualified for the job. Personally I have a degree in mathematics and computer science. That means I understand the maths and the stats, mostly. I don’t always understand the biology, so for that I defer to other people. I have to, I cannot distrust those people.

From this I eventually concluded that the vaccines were mostly harmless. A whole heap of them were “old tech”, you take something like a human Adenovirus, slap another payload into it, and use it to generate an immune response. Do it right, and he is a step ahead when he deals with the real thing.

As for the new tech (mRNA), that wasn’t all that new either. Some research dug up an old paper in the journal Nature, before all this nonsense, where the writers of the paper heralded that the technology has come of age, the advantages of using this tech (it is really easy to swap out the payload, which means you can make vaccines quickly, and you don’t need heaps of human cell lining to do it). That was in 2018. The writers of that article opined that we’d be using the tech for rabies and Zika. Two years later, the world loses its mind over the new tech and start making up stories about 5G and tracking chips… good grief, do people even hear themselves? :slight_smile:

Then came the stats, where people frequently told me that more vaccinated people were dying. But you see… I grok math, so this turns out to be false, because of a little thing called Simpson paradox.

So for me, rather the reverse is happening. I’m growing a very severe distrust in the ability of my fellow man, in this day and age of information at your fingertips, to actually know how to use it, and of course misinformation campaigns use this fact to manipulate you. We used to think that ignorance was due to a lack of information. Now, thanks to the internet, we know that is not true.

So with all due respect to that little insult at the end [my interlocutor claimed that I lack intuition]… perhaps you need to accept that when you are differently trained, your intuition is a whole lot different.

It is a bit like in the 80s, when people were scared that they’d get the kids hooked on drugs by painting doorknobs with LSD. Well, as it turns out, nobody is stupid enough to waste their expensive LSD on painting a doorknob, and LSD isn’t habit-forming anyway… but the intuition in our well-meaning parents were ill adapted to know this. Of course that was before the internet. Not that it would have helped, probably.