100% I am not going to spend this amount of money not to have all the certifications. Was wondering if Victron had this limitation though.
The nice thing about Victron where you have seperate components is that you can mix and match each to what your requirements are. However that does make it a bit more complicated sometimes.
- Match your inverter to the power requirements you have
- Then match the batteries to the inverter and duration you require
- Then match the MPPT change controllers to the power your batteries and inverter need.
If you need to parallalel inverters, it is best to buy them all at the same time. There are some limits if the CPUs or models change then you need to look for an old matching model.
Also note that you can also get the Multiplus II which has the built in GX device. It cost about the same but there is less wires, but also a few less inputs.
As far as I know the Narada batteries are not officially supported by Victron.
https://www.victronenergy.com/live/battery_compatibility:start
https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/85602/best-configuration-for-narada-48npfc100-in-multipl.html
Full disclosure, I didnāt read the whole thread. Just want to add something to consider: Instead of an MPPT, perhaps look at a Fronius PV inverter on some of the panels. Depending on your usage pattern, that could be more efficient. It also gives you additional inverting capacity.
Going with the Quattro, presumably you want to get a generator as well? Otherwise, you could go with a smaller inverter (less standby consumption) like a 10kW Multi, add a 5kW Fronius (then you have 15kW during the day, should the sun be shining nicely), put the rest of your panels on a 250/100, or 450/200 (if you want additional capacity for future). You do have a monster battery to charge, so you should probably still have a beefy MPPT for efficiency (seems like you have quite a bot of night time use).
You will probably want additional panels in the future, because it seems your battery vs panels tells me that you might struggle to charge them consistently (especially if you add another 30kWh of lithium).
Thank you!
Right now itās quite confusing not going to lie, but I like taking the time to learn. I am almost thinking of just getting two Multi 10kw but then itās not NSR certified as per the current list (only the 5kva is).
Then I could go with 3 Multi 5kva. Itās just frustrating that there is an option with less components I.e. Two 10kvas it then Iām screwed as I want to eventually add more panels and add back to the grid. I understand NSR certification is expensive but logic would say they should certify a family of models to make it easier I. E. Range Multi 2kva - 10kva instead of a single model at a time.
On the Quattro tbh I was trying to go for the largest single inverter so I have one inverter not many. No need for an additional input for a generator (donāt have one or plan to get one).
Agree on adding more panels as I have enough space for at least another 33.
It does bring up a valid point to look at other options of inverters but I want the best so not interested in Sunsync and the likes (even though they might be valid logical options).
The Victron will still be the heart of your system (so to speak) giving frequency when the grid drops etc. The Fronius isnāt connected to any batteries. It is just a PV inverter, making AC from the panels connected to it. In a Victron system, you could use it instead of an MPPT. If you watch the ESS video on Victronās youtube channel, Iām pretty sure they explain how they integrate with Fronius.
Think of it like this:
- The Victron inverter is you main source of power. It is connected to the batteries and all your critical loads are on its backup output.
- One or many MPPTs sits directly on your DC bus, effectively charging your batteries. They do not add to your total inverting capacity, only play the role of charging the batteries. The Victron inverter takes power from the DC bus if it needs to invert.
- You and put a Fronius (or some other brands) PV inverter on the AC input of the Victron, or on its backup AC output and connect some panels to it. If the Victron wants to charge its batteries, it can get some power from the Fronius. The Fronius can also serve to power loads. The Victron communicates directly with Fronius to control it.
@Sarel.Wagner has a system like that, if Iām not mistaken? Hereās a link to Sarelās system if you want to have a look: My Micro grid system
Effectively, think about it like this:
- Using power in the daytime (not charging batteries) is 90% efficient if you do it with the Fronius. Charging batteries is about 80% efficient with the Fronius. But then you also need to discharge them to use them, dropping the full cycleās efficiency to 70%.
- Using power in the daytime or charging and subsequently discharging batteries with MPPTs are 80% efficient. But critically, MPPTs doesnāt add additional inverting capacity.
There are obvious limitations of relying on a PV inverter to supplement your inverting capacity, but should you investigate going that route, get a good installer to deal with it, like @JacoDeJongh
1 Like
I have a 5kVA Multiplus II with a 5kW Fronius on its output side. It works very well, but the obvious limitation is that when the sun isnāt shining I am limited to the Ā±4kW sustained output of the Multiplus II. A less obvious limitation is that even when the sun is shining I can still only bank on a reliable 4kW: This is because sometimes when loadshedding hits and the changeover is a rough one the Fronius will temporarily disconnect and only reconnect about a minute later.
The Fronius is only about R10k more expensive than a SmartSolar 250/100, so I donāt regret getting it, but if I had to redesign my system today I would probably pick two MP2 5kVA units and a couple of SmartSolar MPPTs instead.
3 Likes
Hmmm. An expensive Victron plus an expensive Fronius to replicate what you can achieve with a better design single inverter.
You can deduct the price of a similar size MPPT from the price of a Fronius. So then it isnāt that much more expensive. If you are advocating for a 10-15kW Sunsynk, ignoring the OPs decision, then you also need a larger battery bank (which, granted, in this case isnāt an issue). Not sure HF designs (ignoring any support and software) is necessarily ābetterā.
No, I specifically did not mention any names, and Iām not really a fan of SunSynk, but they do offer good value and has done a lot in terms of competition in the sector. Iām just pointing out that HF designs is technically a better approach for hybrid. (keeping in mind that you can buy more than 2x the capacity for the same price, so surge rating becomes irrelevant).
If I were in this position and could choose anything, it would probably be the next3:
https://studerlive.ch/next3/
Interesting product the next3 but isnāt this just another Sunsync like/want to be like/targeting that market type product? What makes it a better/different option to a Victron. I would have to check if it was on the NSR list.
I will share what makes the Victron in my books:
- The build quality
- The support - the warentee, the community, the dealer network
- Home automation integration - huge for me everything in my house is automated. With my current install I have written hundreds if not thousands lines of code to integrate it, simplifying this would be fantastic especially if (as I see it) Victron has a great framework for this others I had to figure out and hack together.
1 Like
Studer is in a completely different league from both SunSynk and Victron. I donāt know if it is even available yet, but it should end up on the NRS list.
Home automation should ideally be done on something that does not make you too dependent on the inverter brand, but if you are already locked in, then it makes sense to stick to that brand.
Why is Studer in a different league (honest question)?
Studer is a Swiss made (and designed) product. If you look inside you will see why it is in a different league. For one they donāt undersize the transformers (for their low frequency designs), like some other manufacturers. The layout is very well thought out. Itās probably in the same league as SMA - and also priced as such. I am not saying the Victron is bad, I just find the design tradeoffs strange given the premium price.
But that is just my opinion, I donāt have anything to sell you and donāt really care what you choose - pick what makes you happy. I just wanted to point out that there is a technically better way to do hybrid than to put everything through the very lossy low frequency transformer (twice in some instances). Going with the Fronius certainly improves that situation.
Now imagine a design like the Fronius, but with the batteries on the same high voltage bus as the panels - if you also have high voltage batteries, you can avoid even more of the losses.
1 Like
In an off-grid setup, your inverter only runs at peak power for short periods of time, which allows the engineers to get away with something smaller, or conversely, to market it with a slightly higher number. So it is not really undersized, it is sized towards the typical use for a X-kVA system. Of course, it probably sounds like I am just making excuses and all that, but this is not a closely guarded secret, the information is quite commonly available 
Your Multiplus can really only run 80% of the peak power continuously, by which I mean over an hour at a time. It can also hapily run at 120% for a few minutes, as long as you keep it cool and the voltage stays up. It is indeed a design trade-off you simply need to be aware of.
Exactly! Hence my gripe with it being used as a hybrid.
85% of the market is off-grid But then, because of our energy situation in SA, we kinda need a good off-grid inverter too. So here we are
1 Like
Wholey Cr@p this just confused me even more. There I thought the Victron was the bees knees of inverters for my application. Also assuming the next3 isnāt in ZA yet either?
Answered my own question on availability as I just pinged them:
- Not available in ZA (yet)
- I can import it but
2.1 15k Euros for the 16kva then need to add shipping customs vat etc.
2.2 12 year Warentee (but not covered in ZA yet)
2.3 Next available batch is end of November.
Iām sorry, that was not my intention.
Victron is clear about the capabilities of the MPIIs if I recall correctly. The one we all refer to as the 5kVA model, is a 4000kVA per the spec sheet, for example. Izak makes a perfectly valid point. Many products work like that. For example CPUs are designed to throttle on temp, but can provide the states āup toā (or more) performance while sufficiently cooled.
Someone who cares about having 60kWh of batteries, are not really here for a grid-tied hybrid design. They are clearly in the market for something that will provide them an off-grid setup, running grid-tied when the grid is available.
I see a modular Victron system as a tried and tested solution in such an instance. Bring on the Fronius to help run the load while grid-tied, but donāt rely on it as backup.
To make Victron out as a subpar product, is a little disingenuous to me. It is a quality product with years of proven reliability. They make great products with many satisfied customers. I canāt see why the OP would regret his decision if he opts for it.
Sure, a HF HV design would have less losses. But weāre talking letās say 10% here. But how is availability looking for HV batteries in SA? Similarly the inverters etc.
Anyways, I also have nothing to sell anyone, just a very satisfied Victron customer who thinks the availability of their products and support in SA is not to be disregarded. The modularity is a great feature for a solution that can evolve with your needs.
2 Likes