Just have a think, ICE cars EVs and power generation

Oh I did glance at the article by the time I finished writing my response. The issue remains: Even if getting oil into South Africa is three times dirtier, in other words the well to tank emissions is 42g/km, the EV still loses. All those costs the article mentions, transport, refining, etc… that is included in the well-to-tank estimate I posted.

Again, do not get me wrong. I am not blaming EVs. The problem is we get electricity at the socket at around 1kg/kWh of CO2. In the UK it is 162g. In the US it is 390g/kWh.

It gets even more complex, since we typically don’t run pure fossil fuel derivatives anyway. It is a mix, often containing some ethanol as well. In SA, as much as 10% of petrol is ethanol, and that has a lower footprint.

Then the problem, as you say, are not EV’s.

It is how SA generates electricity.

And SA and SSEG, as Mark pointed out, lets see where that takes us in the next 10 years.

Splitting Eskom, another factor to watch.

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Yup. I thought I was clear about that :slight_smile:

Now think back to what our man De Ruyter was trying to do. A big part of what he did, was to move us to renewables, or to make us ready to move to more renewables.

In the end, there is another aspect of an energy transition that is often forgotten: Potential. Which technologies have the potential to get the job done, even if initially they don’t, and which technologies don’t have that potential.

An internal combustion engine might be the better option right now, but it does not have the potential to get the job done. It is as good as it will ever be, or at least very very close to as good as it gets.

The only two options with the necessary potential, are BEVs and FCEVs.

https://archive.ph/pqenZ

These targets that politicians decide on I find incredulous.
Here they report on how successful the EV transition is in the UK and comparing these figures with other rich countries.
Yes, the more money your citizens have the better these figures are.
We just need to improve this is the global south to really make a difference…
What arrogance!
Does anyone else get exasperated like I do??

Immediately I wonder: was it really the politicians that decided them? Did they do so nilly willy?

I also wonder: What’s the other side of the coin? American politicians that are in the pockets of the oil companies, deliberately delaying the transition? How is that any better?

What if we just let the market decide? Even that, I don’t find to be a good solution. If you let the market decide, people keep buying what they know, companies keep making what sells. There has to be a collective conscience somewhere.

I find it useful to always remember where the word politics comes from. It is from the Greek politikos, which roughly translates to “citizens of the city”, or in meaning more as “affairs of the city”. Politics, is about the things that concerns the citizens, and the politician is primarily responsible for taking care of those things that affect everyone. Therefore it is quite futile to complain that something should not be political, when you already know that a fair amount of people are very concerned about it. Arguing that such things should not be political is to argue that they should not be important. Which is begging the question.

So it seems to me that the sphere of politics is the right place to make these decisions. I think the science around climate change is also clear. We’re clear about what direction things are going, even if we might not be clear on the time frame, or the degree of calamity that might follow.

All that remains, is to ask if the demands are onerous. And maybe they are, maybe an additional 5 years should be given. But then also, if the rich countries move this slowly, how slow do you think the poorer ones (like ourselves) are going to move?

I do get exasperated. At the slow pace of everything. The only people who are putting on any haste are the Chinese manufacturers. And they have ulterior motives of course: They want to corner the market! :slight_smile:

Reading those two paragraphs, a thought popped to mind.

The Chinese leveraging the “collective conscience somewhere” and that at a “fast pace”?

I would guess they are more at ease with being told what to do. Westerners do NOT like to be told what to do. I mean, if I summarised all the modern resistance movements, be it against vaccines, EVs, renewables, wearing a mask, designing cities so everything is closer to your house, etc etc… that summary would be “don’t tell me what to do”.

:slight_smile:

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No. They asked an expert, or a panel of experts.

Herein lies danger. There are lots of experts on things where we have no real expertise yet. What should be your ration of EV to ICE sales per year? Well there’s experts who will tell you, but we don’t really KNOW because this is the first time we are facing this question.

My employers recently had a workshop to help men be better men, or something. They weren’t just looking at things like accepting that you may have to report to a woman, or GBV (though they spoke to the latter), but also problems that men have but won’t talk about (this is broader than erectile dysfunction) and a higher rate of suicide in men of a certain age.

The chair was somebody who has expertise in “facilitating”. One of the experts was a medical doctor but not specialising in men’s health. The other was a well known TV actor (those were his qualifications).

They had no data. Which was very unhelpful. The suicide rate in men is higher? OK. By how much? What is the variance with age? Who is at risk here? What are the likely drivers of this? No answers.

They did sort of touch on how it was OK to talk to your bros if you were having a tough time, but didn’t have a way of dealing with a possible situation where your bro doesn’t want to hear that, or has nothing to offer.

They did spend a lot of time talking about how much allowance you should pay your girl friend each month. This was in the section about “black tax”.

Now I don’t doubt that the employers had genuine concern and empathy, even if only because happy staff will work better than unhappy staff, and are less likely to look for a better situation because their current situation is a happy one. I don’t doubt their motives. I don’t doubt that they went looking for people who could give good advice.

But this bunch of experts didn’t have much expertise when push came to shove. A question was raised about what to do when the tables are turned. A male employee had been inappropriately touched by a female employee. What should he do? Would anybody even believe him and take the report seriously? This was supported by other members of the audience, I’m guessing because the same woman had fondled more than one man (though maybe rubbing a guy’s thigh to see the look on his face is some sort of odd joke). It got shut down very quickly because of course none of the panel really had a clue.

Ah there. I feel so much better now.

But it’s like COVID. A lot of what was done when that disease started spreading was a mix of best practice (hand washing) and guess work because nobody had had to deal with a pandemic for decades. Scientists had warned that there would be one, but could not predict the nature of the virus. Nobody knew how it would mutate. Nobody knew what the mortality rates would be.

As time went by we learned more about it and could modify our approach.

And this is really how humanity deals with a lot of things: we improvise, we muddle along, hopefully we take the advice of John Maynard Keynes: “when the facts change, I change my mind.”

I sometimes wish that governments would be honest about not having answers, or that they may have to shift their position as more is learned. But we don’t like that. We like a politician who says it’s all the fault of A, and so my government will do B, C and D. This is before they’ve got into government and actually seen all that stuff that is kept for goverment eyes only.

Example: When the Tory/LibDem coalition took power in the UK, David Cameron and particularly Nick Clegg quickly came under fire for doing a U-turn on campaign promises they had made. A seasoned political reporter from (IIRC) the Telegraph wrote a sympathetic piece in which he pointed out that the men had had no part of government despite having several years in Parliament, that there was information, mostly financial and security, that is reserved for PMs and their inner circles only, that in their first few days they would have had briefings from the reserve bank, from MI-5, from MI-6, from the chief of the Army, and so on, and been told things that they would not have even imagined, that would have had their hair standing up and their eyes popping out of their sockets. And at that point they had to abandon some of what they’d promised because now they understood the real nature of the game they were playing.

We are buskers. If we’re honest, that’s what we do. There’s a problem, we chip away at it, and we find that we’re chipping in the wrong direction or with too heavy a hand (or not heavy enough) and so the better thing to do is to shift policy rather than do what you promised because you promised it even though it’s now clear that another approach will give you better results.

According to the experts.

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I think this is what p*sses me off most about the “they lied to us” claims from people who disliked how the pandemic was handled.

Lying implies you knew different. And quite frankly, we didn’t.

Another thing I wanted to respond to. There’s a guy in this country who won a musical contest many years ago. I won’t name names, but it can be deduced. Later he started a church. And recently he wrote a book.

He’s a nice enough. Heart is in the right place and everything. And I get it, he has to convert his former fame into a brand that can be monetized. He does that quite well. The trouble is… I think the majority of people roughly divides into two groups, those who are starstruck by his celebrity status*, and those who wonder if that is his only qualification. I’m in the latter group.

*We know people who live in the same street. They tell me how people show up for a workshop, at the house of said celebrity, and then park in the driveway of the neighbours. When the neigbour complains, the rebuttal is: But didn’t you know you live next to “insert celebrity name”? As if that is somehow a good enough excuse.

Anyway…

That was sort of what I was hinting at. It was a rhetorical question :slight_smile:

What got me crestfallen is how so many fell so quickly for people who were pontificating but clearly had no expertise. EG that auntie who was on the beach in Cape Town, telling us that she was a doctor (she wasn’t, though some person had given her personal training in … stuff), that there was no such thing as a virus anyway, and, for good measure, that Cyril Ramaphosa was a pawn of the zionist conspiracy. Why on earth did people decide to listen to her rather than to eminent, experienced scientists? Or maybe it just looked like a lot did because it all went viral on social media.

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One needs to be very aware of who is paying that “experienced scientists”, or “experts”, salary.

That of course goes both ways. Or sometimes no ways. I do find that quite often when people bring up this objection, it is rhetorical. They don’t actually go that one step further to prove the source of the funding, they assume it. Because the love of money is the root of all evil, right?

Then, if we can trace that money to someone sufficiently disagreeable, let’s say Bill Gates or the WEF, then we are done? Well, no, that’s the genetic fallacy. Sometimes, the investigation you paid for turns up the opposite of what you hoped for.

Indeed. There was a string of doctors and researchers who told us that smoking really wasn’t that bad for you, and who were all being paid by tobacco companies. And the guy who told us that the 3-in-1 vaccine was so bad turned out to be compromised.

Is the damage done so bad that we now turn away from the likes of Prof Karim and Dr Grey and join the line for any old charlatan that comes along?

Rhetorical question. This is not a new thing. Throughout history there have been mountebanks who have attracted a following.

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Now that is where the wheels come off for many. Some even “foam at the mouth” if you dare point out some things.

FWIW, my “who is paying”, not a rhetorical point, but aimed at specific thoughts I have, similar to what Bobster pointed out, the “science” behind smoking, want to add the “USA Food Pyramid”, the Greenpeace article you posted about the “paid-for information”.

BMW and that potential “foaming at the mouth” information, that many in the USA believed woman never owned slaves, the salient facts of how the slave trade actually operated, how they originally sourced the slaves.

It is not easy, facts coming out that are sometimes extremely uncomfortable to face.

Makes me smile. For example, one must Google like i.e:
Why are men good for society.
Then Google the opposite, why are men bad for society.

Then I expand on that … why are woman … and so forth.

But I’m human, I like my comfort zone until I’m forced to change my perspective. :slight_smile:

Sometimes “let sleeping dogs lie” goes a long way too.

Of course, I didn’t mean to suggest that you’re guilty of this. I do run into it a LOT on social media. I enjoy debating idiots far too much (again, not you :slight_smile: ).

Someone will say, matter-of-factly, that all you have to do is follow the money. Which of course you have to do, but you have to follow ALL the money.

The energy transition represents the largest transfer of wealth the world has ever seen. We’re talking about a lot of money not only to be gained… but to be lost as well!

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This new series, Landman, damn it is good.

One scene, the “fixer” talking to an young attorney who annoyed him about oil should stop, him going off on her about:

  • how integrated oil is in the world, from cars to makeup to medicine,
  • that it is not about the cars/trucks, that being a smaller percentage compared to like tarred roads, (authors freedom here please)
  • that it is all about demand for oil, oil be completely integrated in the western world, driving it totally,
  • that if every car was EV that there was not enough transmission lines nor generation today,
  • him saying that oil will run out, that we need a least 30+ years to change course, a course change that should have started years back already,
  • that we basically have run out of time to replace oil,
  • that she must rather contemplate that day when the world comes to a standstill due to no oil running out with no time to get alternative energy sources online.

He made some damn fine points in that soliloquy - we debated all of that here already.

In the end, it comes down to the threat of climate change. If we found out tomorrow, that we have only 5 years left to make a change, you can bet your bottom dollar that all those reasons will suddenly seem unimportant.

I imagine a group of people looking at a very tall mountain, and some of them saying: Oh well, we tried! And then going home.

Some arguments are like that. It will be difficult. Therefore we cannot do it.

:slight_smile:

That is a consequence, I wondered how long do we really have with oil?

Googled it, quite interesting results. Seems there is no problem depending on which link you click.

This answer interested me:
It’s estimated that known oil-deposits will run out by 2052 . Realistically, we may never run out of oil because, given the depth of the Earth’s core, there will be new wells to discover. That said, it’s highly likely that the practice of mining such depths will become economically unviable.

There are some more things to be noted.

  1. If we burn less of the oil, it will last longer
  2. If we burn less of the oil, it also affects the climate less, and buys us more time.
  3. You still have to refine the oil to get out the parts you need: Plastics, tar, fertilizer, etc. This has a big fooprint as well. We may need to find alternatives for some of these products.
  4. What do you do with the waste products, which now include petrol and diesel, if you are still refining oil for all those other products, but you stop burning it for energy?

As I already said earlier, I don’t buy arguments based on difficulty. If this is as serious as we’re being told, then we don’t have the option of not doing things because it is too difficult. If we have to dump the unused bits of the oil back into the well, that might be a better option than the alternative.

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