Noob inverter question

This opinion is gleaned from an accumulation of anecdotal experiences documented on the WWW.
An LF inverter is a prerequisite for motor-starting currents, a HF inverter just isn’t able to sustain the oomph.
Often soft starters and VFD are put forward as solutions, but further research would show these are not suitable for inverter supplies without smoothing reactor filters between the inverter and the loads.

I want to re-stress my opinion is not evidenced by my own testing but by anecdotal research from numerous resources. (Certainly not just the couple of sources I provide here).
This is for the plain and simple reason I will require this capability in the future. An inverter without surge capacity will be useless to me.
I only want to buy the right thing once.
(Which unicorn among us hasn’t made this mistake in their solar adventure and tried to save pennies and learned the hard way?)

There isn’t a world where I would spend double the money for both types of inverter to justify my researched opinion. If you disagree with it, you’re welcome to.

Luckily, some people are more philanthropic than me:
Bear in mind: Sol-Ark = Deye = Sunsynk

2 Likes

An LF inverter just cannot sustain it’s “surge rating”, where an HF can. (because with the LF, losses are primarily resistive, scaling with the square of the current, and in HF the biggest loss usually scales linearly with current). This means you can sell an HF inverter with a rating equal to it’s “surge” capacity. That is the simplified version anyway.

You should be comparing a 1kW LF inverter to a 2kW HF one (which is usually cheaper, despite being double the rating).

HF inverters are a more difficult to design reliably, although IMO, some on the marked are definitely designed to be unreliable/for obsolescence so that they can sell more of them when they fail.

VFDs should have active PFC. The cheap ones certainly don’t, but things like inverter aircons do (at least the ones sold in the European markets do).

I am not referring to power factor compensation I am referring to the effect of the massive harmonic distortion introduced by electronic switching of these devices.
They don’t reduce current in a smooth manner, ( like say a star/delta starter would). they switch it on and off very quickly, but when it’s on it is full on.
Sure that harmonic distortion gets proportioned against other pure sine wave loads being fed when it’s a relatively small load itself.
But when it is a 3ph motor starting on load, then it is the big fish in the pond.

Agreed:
This is essentially what my research is showing, the Sol-ARK is sold as 12kW, but it is actually only good for 9kW of gradually increased load, but if you need to start a motor, it is as good as a 4.5kW LF inverter.
Now, as a motor on load draws 6 x full load current typically, that supposedly 12kW HF inverter will be defeated by a pretty small motor.

2 Likes

This is interesting, so comparing a 8kw Deye/Sunsynk to a 5kva Victron as a 1:1 is not that far fetched? ITO load it can handle, putting price aside.

1 Like

Personally (as mentioned before), I’ve had a similar experience with my 5kVA Victron MPII. It has zero issues starting the pool pump (running wattage of ±800W), even when already running at 3.5kW (3kW geyser plus base load). Running for quite a while at over its rated capacity was no issue (never got a warning, but I did switch off the loads the moment I noticed it). This is while off-grid.

In a grid-tied scenario, I suspect you’ll save more money with the 8kW Deye/Sunsynk/Sol-Ark. As it doesn’t need to start the loads itself, but while the loads are running, I understand it’ll invert 8kW while the Victron would only do (in my experience) around 4.5kW. I know @plonkster mentioned that it should derate after a while to about 4kW, but I’ve never experienced that (and I do monitor it quite religiously). Perhaps it is because my unit stays quite cool.

As most of us are getting a battery-based inverter, at least partly, to alleviate loadshedding (i.e. off-grid operation), I think the off-grid capabilities should very much be a point of consideration. If you just want to save money, you should probably just be getting a grid-tied PV inverter and skip backup completely.

I’m hugely interested in having a PV inverter (like @Sarel.Wagner is running) in conjunction with a Victron inverter. In theory it would basically give you robust off-grid/loadshedding operation and additional savings while grid-tied (and additional capacity while off-grid, but not to be relied upon).

1 Like

I do this as well.
It seems a no-brainer,

  1. Cabling saving using existing AC cabling from PV that can be quite distant from the batteries.
  2. 2 high voltage MPPTs thrown in and the whole unit itself can be cheaper than the price of another comparative Victron MPPT.
  3. Uses the toroidal architecture of the Victron inverter to charge batteries from extra PV generation.
  4. The use as it you make it approach is more efficient.
  5. It doesn’t necessarily need comms to the Victron to work.
  6. The PV inverters shut down at night, so there is no standing loss expense for that generation gain during the day. In contrast, standing losses on big hybrids can be quite high.

My next big system, when I retire, will have a lot more AC-coupled generation than DC-coupled MPPTs.
( Keep in mind some DC-coupled PV is still needed for black starting, but besides that, I am going about 90% AC-coupled to hybrid ratio).

1 Like

Yes, but active PFC will solve the problem you referred to in a more elegant way (as well as solving some others).

If you are starting large pumps then yes the Low frequency is the clear winner.

For the applications most people use the HF inverters work very well (household).
I have done (only saw it after on my graphs) about 7KW (4.5-5KW from solar, and the rest from battery) on my Deye 8KW. I run my heatpump(1.2KW) and oven (2.7KW) and sometimes the induction plate(1.2KW) or a normal plate (1.6KW) at the same time, sometimes you do not think about it and switch on the microwave, to quickly heat some food or boil the kettle. I also have 2 freezers and 2 fridges running consonantly. No trips and no warnings. The fan does spin up when working hard which can be annoying. I have also used my arc welder once, but that was only for an hour. Friends of mine even mow the lawn with an electric lawnmower on a 5KW Deye (I think a 2.5KW (or maybe 2.2KW) electric motor).

If you are going to run a geyser (3KW) you will have to work carefully to not exceed the 5KW on the Victron. I guess if you combine it with a grid-tie string inverter then they can share the load (during times when the sun out).

If you are running with a grid connection both inverters will happily dump excess loads on the grid

Yes, the THD problem can be solved, but can it be solved cost-effectively?
On big stuff (11kW motors and such). My research suggests the money is better spent on bigger LF inverters.

I’m not convinced, not if you add the cost of the bigger batteries (that can carry the surge demand).

Not sure why the battery surge requirements would be different between LF and HF designs?

The argument is a HF+VFD versus an LF inverter with enough surge capability. In the case of the LF inverter your battery also has to handle the surge. The VFD can eliminate the surge.

I agree, and in most applications at that power level 11KW+ people want to do speed/energy control anyway so the VFD is a prerequisite.

1 Like

I want to add some context to this discussion. I am talking about 3ph 11kW pumps because 2 of these pumps are going to be in my future. They will only run during the day and run full tilt when they run. ( Star/delta starting).

OK, I am veering substantially off topic here, but hopefully the content of this debate justifies it having a more detailed written reasoning.

Firstly, I can’t find costs related to your PFC solution or even a reference to it being used at this size load. That is not to say it doesn’t exist, it is rather an invitation for you to add input that I am ignorant of.

That said, I will try and break down my research into layman’s terms for the wider audience as as I am sure you already know the components involved.
What I have found out is VFD doesn’t limit the surge it breaks it down into little DC bits, making for a very nasty waveform.
It tries to be on a bit and off a bit so the average overall effect is less of a surge.
(But it is still a bunch of high current surges).
A 6-pulse VFD unit is the cheapest, with pairs of pulses trying to reconstitute a 3ph sine wave.
My research suggested that VFD units should be substantially over-rated to their intended load.
(For context we are in the 1000$+ range already).
A 6 pulse introduces over 40 % THD ( total harmonic distortion). This can be improved by using a 12 pulse unit , an 18 pulse unit or a 24 pulse unit.
More switching pairs means smaller and smaller dc bits adding together making a smoother sine wave shape.
The THD improves every time but the cost goes up as every 6 pulses doubles the hardware and more than doubles the cost.
Even at the 24 pulse stage though, we still would need filtering to reduce the THD to acceptable levels.
However, the conventional inductive filter solutions are as expensive again. ( I understand this to essentially be a 1:1 400V 3ph 11kW transformer).
And this is why THD is a concern with an off-grid inverter and not so much with a grid supply.
Because a normal grid supply is already through a transformer which dampens the effect of the harmonic distortion on upstream generation.
This distortion is mixed in with everyone else’s non-distorted sine wave load, so the generation side has an easier time dealing with it.
But to be clear ESKOM can insist that your THD is <5%.

An off-grid inverter is already trying to reconstitute a sine wave by adding little switched DC bits together. ( With an HF design having less in-built inductive dampening than an LF design, but I don’t know if that’s significant). It also contrasts the grid in that this distortion is now a substantial portion of a far smaller total generation.

The other design weakness I see with this solution is that a VFD is a load-side solution.
I would need a VFD and whatever filter at pump 1, and I need to spend again for pump 2’s VFD.

A generation side solution can start pump 1 and then start pump 2 sequentially.
The cost breakdown there:
I need enough inverter surge capacity for, say, a 70 kW surge.
Which will be a 3-ph blend of AC-coupled and hybrid inverters.
I’d need 30kW ish anyway to run both pumps and other loads anyway, so an extra 40 kW of inverter surge capacity would be required
Battery -wise:
4 X 18s 304A Eve cell banks, I estimate starting current to be around 1C or less. Not cheap, but I would have had a minimum of two banks anyway, as this is a completely off-grid system.

So the inverter side solution roughly doubles the cost of the system, which may or may not be cheaper than 2 VFD’s + filters, but I think there would not be that much in it.

So to be fair, both solutions are expensive, but I’d rather have a bigger battery and be able to start whatever I liked with fewer components to go wrong.

3 Likes

THD in this context is really not that important; to the inverter it will probably be easier to handle than the PF of a directly connected motor.

Yeah, PFC also means pump fan control in this context, so that will be hard, took me 2 min:
https://docs.rs-online.com/7cac/0900766b815521c1.pdf (although only in the single phase version, you are probably looking for AFE, but I doubt you’ll find that in this low power rating, because it isn’t needed).

This is very misleading, I don’t even know where to start. Lets try this - most VFDs switch at 6-16kHz, your motor is a giant inductor. (can you see where this is going?) . That’s how you get the V of VFD. Now you start the motor at a much slower rate than you would normally (the F of VFD) - that reduces the surge requirement. Most notably, with vector control you can be “synchronized” basically from the very start, so there goes practically the entire surge requirement, and even without it you can still limit it to insignificance.

You only need to buy one that is rated for your load for 100% duty.

It’s not.

It is good practice to write acronyms and abbreviations out long-hand in the first reference to them.
For example, what is AFC?
This unit achieves an 8% THD (1ph), but that value is still deemed unacceptably high by utilities.
No 3ph THD is quoted, I don’t assume it will be better because if it was companies tend to advertise the fact.

There will already be an inherent 3-5% THD from the inverters already due to their similar architecture.

No, I don’t. I know that the back EMF voltages that will be generated from HF switching of a giant inductor load will not be a welcome thing. This is not the same thing as the desirable dampening effect of a series choke or an upstream 1:1 transformer.

Fair enough, your referred unit at 11kW is 2K Euro on Amazon.
(I would still typically still err on the side of oversizing components in my designs).

Two of them are 4K Euro, but the still high THD puts the longevity of the investment in my other equipment at risk. (More about that later).

Your use of the word “probably” bothers me.
We are talking a lot of money here. Can you expound on this opinion because ESKOM will only allow 5 % THD AFAIK?
I find plenty of references where VFD is put forward as a magic cure-all solution, but not actually by people who have walked the talk.

So to restate, I can’t find credible literature to support this statement, but I can find references that an excessive THD will affect the rest of the system negatively.
Heating, bearing failure, interference with comms channels, nuisance tripping and general equipment longevity are often cited.

Here is an example of such a discussion:

The lesson I have learned and learned well in my solar adventure is not to buy the cheaper gear that might “probably” work, because I end up buying the more expensive trusted solution afterwards.

So I have a colleague who went with a company that does exactly this: they sell you an inverter, battery, panels etc. and then have a Raspberry Pi which connects to their monitoring service from which they can control the inverter remotely and help fine-tune your setup. In principle, great, but problematic in reality:

  • they chose a Must inverter
  • they coupled it with batteries (can’t remember which) which doesn’t communicate with the Inverter or the Pi. Only the Pi & Inverter communicate and the inverter uses voltages to estimate SOC (uh-oh)
  • they completely locked him out of the internals of the system (including the Pi) – just saying he should contact them if he wants to make adjustments. Gave him a dashboard on a website to view the whole affair.
  • there’s no monthly fee, so the sustainability of this is questionable
  • he eventually figured out how to adjust various settings on the inverter directly, and found he could do a better job than they did.

So I think there might be opportunity for something like this, but you really need to pick the right equipment, know it well along with proper DevOps and the business side well to make this work. And on top of it you would have to explain to customers that weather predictions and LS schedules are fairly dynamic and can be wrong!

Yeah, after dealing with customers on high-end critical software since 1992 … the client is king … till proven wrong. I swear.

No one is always right.

The trick is to explain it so that everyone understands, and agrees … the worst case (no jokes) client is prepared to pay for not taking any responsibility.

I think the control room idea probably works better with a “rent to own” type sale. You pay off the equipment over some time, but you essentially rent it while someone else maintains it, services it (ie looks after their investment while you pay it off!), and then after the sale period you pay the small residual (typical in these deals) and then you can decide if you want to keep the monitoring service.