New Electrical CoC. What if you don't have the original CoC?

[TheTerribleTriplet]

New area added to the house. Installed Critical and Non-Critical DB there.

And then the drama started.

To get a CoC for that part, the new electrician who can give the CoC, asked for the original CoC of the house, bought in 2004, to add the new suplement CoC to it.

Fact that for every CoC I had, the original number was left out, he could not use any of them.

Now no-one has the original from 2004. Not even CoCT, they looked.

And then my questions started:
Since 2004, fact that each subsequent CoC was done for just that part, with photos taken by each electrician, does that mean they are invalid, seeing the original CoC number was not inserted on the documents?

And, IF I had the original CoC, sparky now gives a supplement CoC on that original one, if he missed a thing, fault on original, does that make him responsible for the other electricians work/CoC he gave, seeing his work was done on faulty starting point?

Any thoughts people?

What does the regulations say?
Each CoC is just for that part the electrician worked on, not so?

[Swartkat]

TTT, this sounds to me like you may have to ask the sparky(s) that did all the 2004 subsequent work, to maybe just do the original house also.

Hopefully this is one guy that you’ve used over the years. Somehow I don’t think that this latest COC which is going to have a later date will be an issue, and I don’t think that any faults picked up there could invalidate all the other COC’s

I have an electrician friend that I will ask about this.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

Here is the thing I’m now told by two sparkies, need the OEM certificate number.
Other two say naaa, don’t need that.

If I want the entire house CoC’ed, no problem, can arrange that.

BUT, each and every connection, the one guy says, must be checked.

Ok, so tell me Mr Sparkie, I said, how are you going to check each connection made for lights above the ceiling, yet the connections you want to check, is under the concrete slab above the ceiling?

His answer … each connection must be checked. (He did look confused.)

Don’t get me wrong, I want it done right, but at one point, you run into things that are not possible. Ok, it is possible, you gut the ceiling to get to it.

I don’t think you need the original Certificate Number, that is what I want confirmation of. That each CoC is just for THAT one job.

[Swartkat]

@TheTerribleTriplet

That each CoC is just for THAT one job.

This is what I think as well. I am really hoping this is the case.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

Me too … I always get to the deeper drama … that “Degree” I’m still paying for.

Geez, I said, the CoC for when the solar system was installed, major DB work, use that number … Nope, he said.

Note: He does not seem interested to get the job for the house CoC, so it is not that.

[Swartkat]

Ok he came back to me.

He is on a site now, but when back at the office he will provide me with the relevant regulation that determines that…

All subsequent COC’s are invalid if not based on /added to the original COC at the time.

I really hope that this is not the case and that the regulations were perhaps interpreted incorrectly as happens so many times in this industry.

Because this would mean that everything would have to be redone.

But if so, you should arrange a get together/braaiday for all the sparkies you’ve used. Surely they can assist with getting this done cheap as it would involve just rewriting their own COC for their part of the work.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

@Swartkat

All subsequent COC’s are invalid if not based on /added to the original COC at the time.

Just got same confirmation from an Engineer.

Every single CoC I have in hand, was money wasted.

Volgens wet moet jy n geldige COC vir die hele stelsel, indien jy dit nie het nie mag die elektrsien nie werk doen op die stelsel nie. Dit beteken as hy 'n COC sou uitreik kan sy lisensie afgeneem word.

So the new younger sparkies, that say No, are 100% correct.

Liewe donner …

[Swartkat]

Ai TTT,

So sorry man. This is bad. I really feel for your predicament.

Time to start drafting one explanatory email to all the sparkies involved and ask for assistance to remedy this.

Because if the engineer is correct, their reputations are on the line.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

@TheTerribleTriplet

Volgens wet moet jy n geldige COC vir die hele stelsel, indien jy dit nie het nie mag die elektrsien nie werk doen op die stelsel nie. Dit beteken as hy 'n COC sou uitreik kan sy lisensie afgeneem word.

Ag, you know by know … if there is shiite to go around, I’ll get it first.

The bigger thing here …
Now everyone here who reads this thread, better go and check each and every CoC that they have, that this is filled in, and you have the original in hand, or can get it.

I’m now questioning the Initial Certificate, as this was an extension done in 2012. Not that it matters for the rest the original house.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

Here is the 2019 CoC for the solar system …

Also useless, as it is a supplement, not an Initial Certificate.

[Swartkat]

Here we go.

[jatho]

I had a similar situation and also established that subsequent COC’s are often worthless.

If you have the details of the transferring attorneys for your house check with them they should have a copy of the original COC, that’s what I did, my purchase was 2017 though so a bit more recent.

Good luck I feel your pain.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

Some more info.

The sparkie came, the one who will issue a Supplement without an Initial. Onsite, he declined to give a CoC. But he had “solutions” to get it all sorted.
He also said CoC is valid for 1 year … no, that is not true … then he corrected himself, 1 year valid if you sell the house … I’m not selling?
Interesting. Will see where this goes.

Whilst he was onsite, got a callback from the ECB Electrical Board , I emailed them yesterday asking their their advice on my conundrum.
An electrician MUST issue a Supplement CoC for any work they did. It is the law.
(Mmmm, so these sparkies that do work and then say no Supplement CoC required, but if you want one, that is a extra cost … )

The problem area comes in when there is no Initial CoC, to link the Supplement CoC to.
They are aware of the problem.

Then they said, another titbit, if an owner of a property does not have an Initial CoC, if found, the fine is R10 000.

Now here is the thing I picked up from two Sparkies so far:
To test the earthing, plugs, tripping limits, fall of a horse easy and as fast as one can walk around the house if they know where everything is, and it is easily accessible.
Same with lights.
How long can these test take, I asked… assuming the meter tests spot on every time … here it goes from it is fast and easy to “how long is a piece of string?”.

So why does that cost R3500 per day then, I asked …
But what if, I insisted, there are no faults, in out in ±2 hours … did not get a real answer.

Let me do some more homework.

[Bobster]

@TheTerribleTriplet

An electrician MUST issue a Supplement CoC for any work they did. It is the law.
(Mmmm, so these sparkies that do work and then say no Supplement CoC required, but if you want one, that is a extra cost … )

ANY work? Or any work that changes the DB? EG there is a plugs circuit in my outbuildings, run off of a sub DB from the main house’s DB. So I put an extra plug into that circuit, or if take out an old box that allows just one plug and replace it with one that allows two, do I then need a supplementary COC?

Say I don’t put extra plugs in but, as was recently done, just move one a bit higher?

This is going to keep me up at nights.

@TheTerribleTriplet

The problem area comes in when there is no Initial CoC, to link the Supplement CoC to.
They are aware of the problem.

Then they said, another titbit, if an owner of a property does not have an Initial CoC, if found, the fine is R10 000.

Eish! When I bought this house the COC was just handed to me by the seller (not the attorney) in a folder with all sorts of stuff in it (name of the guy who put the alarm system in etc).

Said COC was also no good. Written out by one of these guys whose business consists of writing out COCs for houses he has never set foot in (I dobbed him in to the Contractors Board)

@TheTerribleTriplet

Now here is the thing I picked up from two Sparkies so far:
To test the earthing, plugs, tripping limits, fall of a horse easy and as fast as one can walk around the house if they know where everything is, and it is easily accessible.
Same with lights.
How long can these test take, I asked… assuming the meter tests spot on every time … here it goes from it is fast and easy to “how long is a piece of string?”.

So why does that cost R3500 per day then, I asked …
But what if, I insisted, there are no faults, in out in ±2 hours … did not get a real answer.

First of all, if you have to have a COC then you have to have it.

I know a sparkie who did the COC when I was selling my previous house. He doesn’t want to do COCs anymore. Says that if you sign off on a COC then you have some responsibility in law and if somebody gets a shock (or worse) then the law may come knocking on your door. OK… you might be able to prove that somebody who didn’t know what they were doing was poking around with a screwdriver, or that the wiring had been altered since you issued the COC, but he doesn’t want the hassle nor the responsibility.

So if all of that is true, then a competent electrician issuing a COC might decide to make it worth their while.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

@Bobster

ANY work?

Each CoC, and today with smartphones, electricians are taking photos for their records of the work they did. If drama comes, and it is not in exactly the same condition as the CoC/photo proves, it becomes a problem.

Removing things, fewer potential for things to go wrong, I would take it that it does not matter, if removed properly and that it has no material effect, or underlying accidental danger, whatsoever on the installation, the CoC or anyone working their ever.

I’m pretty sure some will disagree, but I’m on a fact finding mission (for my situation) of what my, the owners, responsibility is. Each sparkie has a difference interpretation.

@Bobster

First of all, if you have to have a COC then you have to have it.

Yes, but the costs that I’m facing, yeah, not that cut and dry. Trust, mutual respect comes to mind, as I posted on another thread here. “Big bucks” does not mean “value for money” - I need to understand this.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

@Bobster

Said COC was also no good.

Here is the thing I’m picking up. If there is drama, and you have a legit CoC, then the onus rest with the person who issued the CoC.

If you don’t have one, then the buck stops with you.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

Got a CoC for the new part. Yeah, it is pretty useless if you ask me, a Non-Electrician.

At least I know for a fact that the work done, is on par. I was onsite.

So what now?

Still considering this idea given to me listening to a few older electricians:

1. Get my own the tester, or borrow one, and go around the house plug for plug, light for light, and check that there are no surprises coming. Check the lights if there are metal around, if there is, is it earthed.

• In the process, one knows exactly where everything is, and one can prepare to make it easily accessible for the final test.

2. Make sure of the geyser/s and any new regulations around them.
3. Solar system, once moved, does it meet the latest newest published regulations.

• Mine, engineer will re-certify it … cause it has been upgraded, being CoCT enforcing said regulations.

Then, if there are faults found, updates required, I have the right sparkie that can fix it bit by bit as per how pressing it is, how the budget is.

Once all is tested, all questions asked and answered, all fixes are properly done, move the furniture aside, get the electrician in for the final test.
Open the trapdoors, put a ladder down … make it easier, save time.

Obviously some tests one cannot do, like inside the DB, at least, I won’t.
Obviously it is a lot of effort for one.
And one has to have a sparkie that will answer question, help (for a fee), the sources to ask for more information.
Then engineer has a large spreadsheet that needs to be checked and adhered to.

Seems that:

1. Making the effort oneself, know where everything is, saves the electrician giving the CoC time in testing, earns a bit of his trust that one knows what goes on, so it becomes cheaper.
2. More important: Because no faults are found, or are fixed, no surprises for me and I can trust the electrical installation.
3. And I can get a new Initial CoC on the entire property, that future work can be CoC’ed as a Supplementary CoC’s, legally.

Big job, but dang, today, whatever CoC I have in hand, if things go sideways and a investigation starts, naaa, not with my “record”.

FWIW:
The electricians that has worked on the house over the years, I trusted them, they me. So I will not go there, as their work was on par, no-one has ever found a fault.
Same with the plumbers and geyser CoC’s.
All did it right and made me do things right.
Just unfortunate I ran into this issue now, maybe a good thing. Me sorting this once and for all, removes any and all Public and Legal liability risks going forward, for them.

… and a newly minted (2 years) sparkie and I learn together so that he can take care of all future electrical changes.
Was because of him that I learnt that the CoC’s I have in hand are not acceptable.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

Let me sum it all up:

1. Any and all work a Electrician does on a property, needs a CoC. It is the law.
2. My core problem, and I think it may be a very common problem, goes back to when the house was bought in 2003. The fact that electrical work has been done subsequently, with CoC’s given …

From a reputable Co that gives CoC’s:

When a house is bought, the electrical certificate is only valid for 2 years, the plumbing certificate only for the transfer and the beetle certificate for only 90 days, when a house is bought.

As soon as there was any electrical work done on the property, the certificate is not valid anymore.

So after 2 years or if any electrical work on the property was done, the certificate is void, and if for any reason you need a new certificate, you need to have a new inspection done and a new certificate issued.

And that is where I’m sitting now … need a entire new CoC for the property.

Having bought and sold other houses over the decades, I never knew the above. Who does?

[Bobster]

@TheTerribleTriplet

Having bought and sold other houses over the decades, I never knew the above. Who does?

Well the regulations have changed. There was a time when earth leakage was not required when you applied for a COC.

Electrians may not all be up to speed on new regulations. A guy I hired a few years back flipped and flopped over the wiring in the oldest part of the house. He first said that it was not up to scratch. Then said it was OK because it would have been legal when it was first installed (he couldn’t be clear on how he’d established the date).

He then told me the PV system had no bearing on the COC because that was regarded as an appliance. I think he sought the advice of another sparkie and he just said the word “inverter” and the other sparkie assumed a plug-in trolley inverter.

I was getting ready to discuss this because it seemed odd to me that something that had it’s own DB and sat between the grid and some circuits on the main DB could just be regarded as an appliance, but he beat me to it by saying that he doesn’t want to be in a position of responsibility in the eyes of the law and so sorry, but he’s no longer issuing COCs.

[TheTerribleTriplet]

@Bobster

… he’s no longer issuing COCs

I found a few electricians who say that.

So I asked them, by law, if you do any work on the installation, you have to give a CoC, right?
Yes, they would, for THEIR work only.

To CoC a house, whole new ballgame, with the inevitable big bills.