What happens elsewhere is irrelevant, and so is the theoretical position, in our case. Unions here is socialist, with all the “it’s never be done right before, we will do so this time” thrown in. I am of the opinion, you as a person do not seek socialism, socialism seeks you. Until the thinking change, (it aint changing anytime soon) the outcome will always be the same. Let’s remind ourselves of the Millions of dollars found in a couch on a game farm somewhere…

We have many ills in SA, not least of is the social elite, the political elite and others telling all they know best. Nope, the market knows best. Why else are we looking at examples of failure everywhere, in Government, local councils, tenders and the processes around them. The ideology, that is why. It’s like lets do Eskom II, sure that will work, the old apartheid one she is broken, never mind that we stole the most of it and are the cause of the once great Eskom’s fall. Yea, in me thinks the early 1990s, Eskom actually received the coveted award for the best run utility, in the World!


What scares me about that statement, is precisely the Epi-pen situation in America. The company that makes them was bought by some rich guy, as I understand, and he moved the price up. The market literally lets him, as there is no competition. Now of course, in time, the market might grow competition. And in the long run, the market does manage itself. But in the interim… you must maar cough up and pay. And that seems immoral to me.

Now being the armchair philosopher I am, I also realise you cannot legislate morality (while, at the same time, you also cannot really legislate anything else). That is to say, you can legislate until you are blue in the face, and you will never get people to act moral. Which is probably why letting Mammon run the show works so well… most of the time.

Those two sentences equate to “no competition” as the rich guy will keep on buying the new startups out. :thinking:

Haha well I have the very simple view:

  1. Under a pure socialist system too much power is legislated into the hands of a few. It will corrupt eventually and it is therefore bad.
  2. Under a pure capitalist system, it seems like all the money (and therefore power) eventually finds its way into the hands of a few. It will corrupt eventually and is therefore bad.

However, at least under approach two, you do not have legislated power, so you can hope for a bloodless transition of money/power from the few rich individuals to a few other rich individuals. Under approach 1, well, empirically a bloodless transition of power doesn’t seem to be possible.

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In the US there is (was?) antitrust legislation. This was put in place to prevent any company buying out the competition. It had teeth as Standard Oil found out.
But it seems that since Donald Trump’s administration looked the other way we have Mark Zuckerberg cornering the social media market. He should never have been given permission to acquire WhatsApp. And no one cares. We just let it happen and moan when these monopolies charge what they like…

All humans are flawed, so all systems have flaws. I will rather take my chances with a free market system where it’s at least my choice. Silly things like a law against hate speech, the cancel culture, yes the laws are abused to that end, and the get at anything you believe is right, morally or immorally, do not sit right.

Under the various guises of socialism/communism, way to many humans perished at the hands of their own governments. At least the numbers are lower under capitalism, so again I rather take my chances here. A small price to pay for expensive but good medical care. You may do as Mugabe did, fly to the EU or Russia for medical care, leave the hospitals locally to the non elites.

Take Transient, a SoE, mentioned earlier. Lost 25% of the freight because of cronyism, theft, non maintenance, no law enforcement etc. Lots of stations are now stripped, train tracks gone, electrical overhead wiring stolen. No maintenance done, and no Law Enforcement, likely due to kickbacks. Same as the Tobacco smuggling, elites getting paid…


In short, your view is that a government should serve the people of a country, not have the people of the country serve the government?

I definitely see it that way.

Many people in SA have this view that the government is a ruler that they need to submit to. But in the same breath they do not want to be ruled by a monarch.


But that happened under a “free market system”, “capitalism”. :rofl:

Nope, it’s marketed as a free market, in name only. :face_vomiting: It’s not free at all. They inherited a mostly capitalist system, turned it into socialist system soon after…


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This only applies to government run departments. What pays their salaries are the taxes on the rest of the economy which isn’t socialist despite completely outdated government policies that are trying to coerce them in that direction. This system has clearly failed but not in the minds of the diehard politicians.

What is more socialist than BEE? What is more socialist than redistribution without compensation? What is more socialist than forcing a business to give away its shares to BEE candidates that did nothing to deserve that, in the name of BEE… Legal profession, Mining, farming and any company with what, 50 or more employees?

Still the only place on earth where the majority legislated discrimination by another name to protect them against a minority. Think about that for a moment.

These are some of the ills of the elitist classes, socialists and ideology of socialism. Just like not getting any services for Tax paid. I take it most are on some form of medical aid. Be glad you not on Govermental medical scheme…

EDIT: These are obviously just an opinion, nobody else’s needs see the world in this way. You may see it any way you like, this is still my opinion…

You are fully entitled to your own opinion.
For me I am alarmed when Jacob Zuma’s opinion (and his ilk) make KZN different from the rest of SA. I don’t see SA breaking up since the country was pieced together after a bitter war and this has provided a pretty strong concept of a country.
However if JZ and Co. want to have it their way then KZN will go the same way as Transkei…

Hi All

Shifted a chunk of the Eskom thread here to the “In the weeds section”. I don’t think there is an issue with the content BUT can’t I ask we just keep forum rules in mind. Especially considering we have international subscribers as well.

Thanks all!

The heart of the issue for Eskom, like everything the anc does, is what we are discussing here. This is the root cause and why they do what they do, consequences be damned. They are the experts….

I will let professor Dunning himself explain:
The Dunning-Kruger effect:
In 1995, a man named McArthur Wheeler in Pittsburg USA walked into a bank and robbed the cashier behind the till. He wore no mask, no gloves, and smiled at security cameras on his way out. He then immediately robbed a second bank next door. Once again, he smiled at the cameras whilst walking out of the building, seemingly without a care in the world.

Much to his surprise, McArthur was caught later that day by police and arrested. When taken back to the station and shown the videotapes of his robberies, he watched aghast and whispered under his breath:

‘But I wore the juice?’

McArthur had fallen victim to what we now know as the Dunning-Kruger effect. He believed that by rubbing lemon juice on his face, he would be invisible to any cameras looking his way. He wasn’t drunk or high, this was something he genuinely believed but was sorely mistaken on.

Remeber the Marikana incident?

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a theory that attempts to explain one of the strangest phenomenons in modern times; why do stupid people think they’re so smart?

I don’t want to get into a big Capitalism vs Socialism/Communism debate, those end up running for pages and pages and before you know someone that doesn’t even know who Adam Smith was calls you a commie :stuck_out_tongue:

Regardless where on the spectrum you personally identity yourself from Anarchist to Totalitarian government subject, or like most people some shade of gray in the middle you will encounter the same basic human flaw that you simply can not escape in any economic system : Greed.

There is sadly no way to arrange a economic system that will not be exploitable to some degree, as every system eventually centralizes power somewhere, so whether it is a political elite or business elite ruling over you, you will always have a invisible overlord.

Like Uncle Ben said: With great power comes great responsibility.


Adding to that …
The proverb, “Absolute power corrupts absolutely” means that whenever a person has power over other people or things, it makes him/her corrupt. It morally destroys their nature and fills them with destructive pride. However, if the person saves himself from this abuse of power, he or she is a humble person.

I feel the same, also to some extent because you have to first define the terms, and that is notoriously hard to do. In the end, no system that is in active use in the world today is purely one or the other. We make compromises.

For example, consider the “utopia” that is sometimes brought up by particularly devoted libertarians and/or anarchists. Imagine a world where the fire department only comes out if you agree to pay the bill. The same for the ambulance (and again, that’s already the case in America). Some things fall within the public good, and a kind of socialist structure works well. For others, it’s not so simple.

Yeah, it’s like free-speech people quoting Sowell or Petersen :slight_smile:

Edit: Or Ayn Rand! My goodness, if I have to see one more person quote that particular quote that they all quote from “Atlas shrugged”, a quote that was actually from a speech delivered by a character in the book, which was a novell… I might just have an aneurysm.


@mmaritz maybe we can change the title of this one please, to Ideology. That is the problem, the way of thinking.

This is what it is…
a**.** a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture

b**:** the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program

c**:** a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture

Capitalism vs Socialism … both are needed.

But it is more intricate than that, methinks.

The more people there are the more rights the individual demands, the fewer rights the majority has … till the majority gets “de moer in” and say ENOUGH! … and then the fight starts.

Also think, the more “woke” a society becomes, generally because of the minority with the loudest voices, the worse it becomes for the majority over time, again, till that ENOUGH moment … and then that fight starts.

What I’ve seen and read and heard in this world, which is not much compared, it is ideal to have a Benevolent Dictator involved to direct people in the same direction kindly, with some force when, not if, when required as people will go all pull all over the show, eventually start wars.

Problem with that Benevolent Dictator, s[he] better be a humble kind wise patient person, or it goes south very fast … again.

Also think that with the world as we have it today, it has become time for females to take over leadership roles … they are closer to that Benevolent Dictators mindset I suggest, than males.

EDIT: I think the world has become bored.

I am thinking about this first. Kamala Harris?