"Greedy" Installers - YES/NO!

General Discussions
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With all respect, this is starting to get old now. It is a cut throat business with so many cheap sh!t we have to compete with. Even with my pricing keeping most of my profit in single digit figures to try and ensure we get the work other bakkie brigades quoted on, i struggle to make ends meet every single month for the last 18 months. Everybody think we are sharks and are becoming stinking rich, that is so bloody far from the truth. I have salaries to pay, me and my wife taking partial pay checks to ensure my staff is happy and dont pack up and leave. Some of the biggest installers in SA have closed their doors permanently because of the current market.

Please, just because you want to save few rands, does not make the installer greedy. you guys have no idea how most installers are struggling to keep head above water. And the fact that I am struggling will never lead to me overcharging someone. There is a market related price and we try to stay below that.

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never point at you my friend…

G

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Sorry for hijacking your post but i fell I want to explain something and I hope more people read this.

What do we as installers charge for?

Product and labour? Right? No

Somewhere in this price I need to build in a support component, because you will have questions, need changes made to settings, need me to came out to collect a faulty unit, get it to the manufacturer, collect it from the manufacturer, reinstall it and reconfigure everything.
Time, fuel and what ever more. Where does that money come from? If i made 5% profit it will barely cover my overheads, how should we keep our doors open?

Now a client phones me, can you sell me a battery? Yes, should we install, no i will install myself. Quote to customer and the next day we get a call, I can buy this battery online for 2% less. Okay, ill drop 2% because 1.5% is better than 0%. Client happy. Battery arrives and the calls starts, hours on the phone with him assisting him to get the system going. A month later his getting an alarm and expects us to now drive to site to check it out. Remove battery, send it in, get it back and reinstall. Still alarm. Spend hours with manufacturer getting the firmware updates, drive back to customer, spend an hour updating firmware and leave. All this on my expense after I already save the customer a huge amount on his purchase. Try to charge him for the support and we get told how “Skelm” we are for charging for support after we sold him the battery.

In this industry, the standard is clear. Victron sells me the equipment. Me as installer becomes the first line of support. If something goes wrong, we handle the complete process because we have charged for it. Now a client buys equipment, he becomes the installer, the responsibility becomes his, not mine. He should then remove the equipment and get it back to either me or the manufacturer on his expense, not mine.

This happened in a deal recently between me and someone on this forum. Guy not talking to me anymore, he just cant understand this concept.

This is also why we in general dont install systems bought buy the client. The moment something goes wrong, the client will expect us to go out of our way to offer support without receiving any support component from the deal.

Lately if someone wants to compare online prices with ours, we tell them to buy online. I want to see how the online shop will assist in installation advice, set up and configuration, and most of all, I want to see what kind of support he will get when something goes wrong.

With this Pylontech solution that I mentioned in another post, my guys were on the road the whole week updating software in Limpopo. We could help 37 clients with Pylontechs on my expense. I drove around to a few sites, some that I have inherited and not supplied, because in a way it is expected and if i don’t do it, the problems is just going to get bigger and cost me more in the long run. I have even spend hours with supporting customers that just bought pylontechs on my recommendation and not even from me. They saw there is a solution, dont get support from where they bought and expect me to implement the solution because I recommended Pylontech three years back. **Took my design and recommendations, bought from someone a bit cheaper, installed it, and now expect me to support and maintain it. **

And that is the whole problem with this industry. Everybody expects everything at as cheap as possible and support for free, and still after that we are the greedy ones.

I had a long talk with Chris Russow a week or two back and he also told me that they need to work on a 3-5% margin on the equipment they import to be competitive in the market.

EDIT: Typing this actually made me realize, i dont have what it takes to make it in this industry. I cant say no, always wants to help and fall for this price negotiation every single time. Do everything for free even though its on systems and equipment I haven’t installed or supplied. I strongly feel that its time for me to exit this industry and go work for a boss. He can worry about all the decisions and I will just do my work.

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No you pointed at installers in general. I am one as well. its a common trend lately with fingers pointed at installers. I felt I want to point out the things you might be missing in your argument that installers are greedy.

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Thanks for moving Mark.

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Adding to Jaco’s post.

Customer service, one needs to learn the word “No”.

And it is close to home too. My wife has the same challenge with her clients. She cannot say No.

She is worried that if she says No, she will lose clients.

Here is what I’ve learnt.
Some clients, the minority, are so load and insistent, they cause longer working hours, after hours support. Cause the most stress. For no financial reward in the end. Sometimes not even a thank you.

Worse. They cost one the good patient paying clients that can work with one. Client who want to work with one. Pay one.

That is why good marketers/support people, can stop those customers dead in their tracks. Sometimes put them on a new paying track.
The really good ones can tell those clients off in such a way that the client looks forward to the trip. (No jokes, it is a skill.)

Also want to add, for general information:
Contractors, solar installers, electrician, plumbers, all face the same challenges ito business expenses, salaries and customers expectations.

Time and time I see the same pattern.
Contractor 1: Quotes X as per what he sees, estimates.
Contractor 2: Quotes Y …
… and so forth.

It is interesting to note: (if the customer puts in the effort)
At times, all are more or less the same.
More times, you see quotes for X, quotes for 2xX and even 3xX for the exact same job.

The unsaid part for the customer:
Customer must know the right questions to ask. Takes time and effort on the customers part.
Customer must also understand the full scope of the job. Curb their expectations at times, other times understand it is not going to be cheap.

Getting various quotes, one gets a very clear picture of the job scope and reasonably expected costs. What the material actually costs …

That said, knowing the scope of the work, knowing the prices of materials, one can spot the “expensive” contractors. Not more value added, just more expensive.

My point:
Customers need to find their go-to contractors and stick with them. Pay them their fees. Mutual trust, respect. Be wise with getting lower and lower prices, never works long-term.
Respected client.

Contractors need to find those clients, look after them with preferential rates/service, cause client pays instantly too, so that they can become the clients go-to trusted contractor.
Respected contractor.

Just a few things I’ve learn over the years.

Back to the thread.
Some of the prices George mentioned he got quoted, yeah, just not right.

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Scope creep, the nemesis of any and every contractor.
The worst one, contractor budgets for i.e. 3 hours, then it takes entire day with the unpaid for added jobbies.

One sees the job, quotes, and then it goes sideways.

Tough question that.

Recently I learned this from a old-toppie contractor.
Actually two sperate contractors.

Both quoted for jobs, different ones, paid for that. The scope creep occured.

So I asked them: What would this cost extra, and that?

Both times they looked me straight in the eye, went like this:
You already paid for the whole day. The guys may at times sit and wait. May even finished in half a day. Refund owed if that happens

So seeing as you already paid for the day, if we can do it today, go and get the material, will see if there is time.

3rd Contractor (other job), also quoted a whole day for the job. With each little scope creep, he charge extra on the invoice. I fully accepted that. It is how it works.

Then they where finished late morning, not late afternoon as I paid for … won’t be seeing him again.

So it all depends on the contractors business model.

Also had contractors, they note the new scope creep down, detailed. But don’t touch it. They focus only on what they quoted for. Disciplined.
Next day, a quote for the additional scope.
Respect.

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…never implied i’m not willing to pay for work done…
but to get to R7k for a panel to be fitted, (sorry but they never even looked inside roof so previous contractors expecrience was never considered/seen).
the 3rd quote said lets not fit panels next to house, lets move that 330 based string onto the small garage roof. read got some cut off wire we can use as it is right above the inverter. then we fit new panels in place where the 330’s were and reuse the old wiring, as we doing all f this now we need to align with new regs. and with all this he is 2/3’s the price of the other guys.
the others was more like… whatever, just add add add and the cost per panel ran up and well, now in hind sight, we going to have problems with those 2 quotes of R35k north.

the guy that came up with solutions and suggestions, is sitting south of R20k and it’s actually a workable solution… might need some changes due to the charge controller limitations. but it’s a honest realist workable quote. that has sense behind it.

G

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The part I also said " yeah, just not right."

Also agree with you …

We all will pay, have paid. We deeply appreciate the skills and knowledge brought to the table. The new ideas to make things more sensible, that does not cost us, nor the installer, more.

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Wait @georgelza . You want to tell me the Quote for 35k and the Quote for less than 20 is for exactly the same work and materials? Been in the industry long enough to know that is not possible. If the same job with the same materials differ that much, someone is taking short cuts.

If its not the same work with the same materials, how on earth can we be discussing the difference here. Comparing apples with horses (not even pears).

And then, if the last quote is easier to execute and use less materials, how can we say the first guy was greedy. Wasnt his price then fair for what was discussed and agreed upon.

If i quote someone on an expensive solution and someone else walk unto site and quote on a cheaper solution, does it now make me greedy?

I still think you calling the first guy greedy is out of line if he had to do more work, use more materials , use different brackets to mount against a wall or what ever reason. To me it seems like we are comparing prices on two totally different solutions, and because the first more expensive solution did not sit well with you, the installer is now bad. (Sorry Greedy)

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This not only happens in the solar game…

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… the ask from the installers…
i have that string of 3 x 330, giving me 1 Kw North.
I want to change my 1Kw North to be 3Kw+ north, 3->3.5 would be great.
I said the only way i can see this happening is X, they smiled, nodded and said sure. and quoted.
No one went into roof, so that gremlin never came into the calcs.
Then the last guy. same input… he went onto roof… after saying idea of panels next to house is risky, consider our wind, and our building quality yrs back and the bricks and plaster etc… so we through some idea’s around, ending with move the 3 x 330 to top of garage, and replace with 3 x as big as we can fit into small space available, on dedicated charge controller. now the old 3 x 330 and the new 3xXXXX give me 3Kw. and he re-use as much of the old as he can, does as little laying wire in difficult spots as he can…

What ended pushing he price was corners cut by original installer, discovered only my positive line in from PV have a break on it, Neg is sommer straight through onto charge controller. No inbound fuses, no outbound fuses, only single throw, single phase isolator. to fix this we need to do X amount of rewiring, he’s offer. he already told me labour cost, and he’s going to stick to it, but i need to cover extra material. which i’m more that happy with.

Think in the end, even if his price was same as the other out of park prices, i’d still go with him, it was about attitude, working together, figuring out the right solution and not simply do X charge Y… thinking i’m not gonna say, wait a minute… the numbers is out of the ball park…

for now… i’ve cancelled the project, just getting costings… and have a workable solution. that i can do once funds look better. this was suppose to be a 10-15 project, not north of 35… as the other quotes were.

G

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I see that a lot on social media. Some conspiracy theorists will straight up opine that the solar industry is in bed with Eskom, that’s it’s the same people (Motsepe is always brought up as the scapegoat) ensuring money is funneled where “they” want it…

In reality, of course, solar installers are currently dying hand over fist.

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This is a common trap that so many fall into. We understand that when you buy cars a BMW has a few qualities that a Mazda won’t have. So you don’t just go around and see who has the cheapest 1600cc car. You understand that you pay more for some vehicles because that vehicle gives you more.

But when you’re looking for a plumber or somebody to install PV for you then the thing is what is, they are all the same, and the guy with the cheapest price is thus the best because everybody is offering the same product, right?

Wrong.

I picked my installer because he was the only one to actually respond to an email. I didn’t know then, but do know now that he is not the cheapest guy around, I could have saved money on the initial install. And a friend of mine did get a system with numbers in the same range (kWh etc) at a lower price.

But with time, his experience and mine have diverged. Not long after install he was left with batteries not charging properly and unexplained rapid loss of SOC at night. When he called the installer he got the run around, then eventually the phone would just ring.

I bought my system in 2019. The installer is still around, still giving support for the system. This has included interventions in the last year with Goodwe RE a charging problem and with Freedom Won because of a problem with the SOC LED array on the front panel (the actual battery has behaved very well). He did not charge me for either of these, and made sure that the manufacturers knew they were dealing with warranty cases. I offered him money for his time, he just said that he will never desert a customer and thanks, but this is part of what he feels he should give to people who paid him good money in the first place.

Or look at my recent expertience of getting my home insulated. The guys I went with where not the cheapest BUT

  1. they would install on a week day (the other quotes I got were from guys who would only install on a weekend. They were doing insulation as a side hustle)
  2. They actually sent somebody out to measure properly and inspect so that they could quote accurately. This included noting the number of downlights and their location because they have to put electrical insulation over those.
  3. They also would provide certification showing conformance with SABS whatever-the-number-is that you could then pass on to your insurer.

Except for price it was no contest. The guys I went with were so much more professional, inspired so much more confidence. I could have saved a couple of grand, but I was much more confident that I would get a good job, first time, with no surprises or delays. And that’s how it all panned out. And that’s worth something, no?

I know that price is a consideration for many of us, and we don’t really have a way of knowing who is doing a good job and who isn’t. But it also remains the case that often goedkoop is duurkoop.

I have several stories along the same lines from all sorts of busines, from tax consultants to running shoe salesmen. Some guys have expertise, are interested in the customer beyond the initial sale, and dealing with those guys gives an extra helping of confidence. And that’s worth paying for.

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This part:

Happened a few times over ±10 years to me.
True Story - one of at least 5:
It was a crisis, so I did not want to go cheap, so got a big name local electrician, not cheap, from many referrals. He came around and did the work sommer himself, being a crisis, short staffed.
After the job, he gave me the CoC.
Year or two later, same issue again. Called him back. As his business expanded, he sent his new guys.
They called me outside. Look here, and here, this is not on specs. Do I have a CoC?
Yes I said, went to fetch it, here, your boss did the job and signed the CoC.

His onsite guys made a call to him, re-did the job a 2nd time, took them a bit of time, not one word was said, nor account presented, CoC given, and they left quietly.

If I got anyone else … would have had to pay a 2nd time.

Latest one … New gas geyser installation.
Got a few quotes in, to learn the right questions to ask, “feel” the people out.
Chose a highly recommended local gas installer. Been in it for years.
Just before I signed, thought, if THAT is his price, get one more reputable quote from a reputable established company in.
Damn … I went with them.

Then the contractor you never see coming:
New build, needs Critical and Non-Critical DB’s and all that goes with that.
Note: I’m VERY sensi with the Victron driving the house.
Got sparkies to quote. Going rates are what they are. Read, damn expensive.
Accidently stumbled across this young lady marketing her fiancé business. Him being maybe 2 years (moved from PE) being a new sparkie.
His rate per hour, I refused to pay it.
I upped his hourly rate for him … and took a chance with him.
Damn, he did a damn fine job! Saved me a few bucks too on material.
The guys that signs his CoC, strict as they come (my kinda guy) signed off with confidence.

Conclusion: It is NOT easy …
Appointing the more expensive highly recommended professional contractors does not necessarily mean the more professional long lasting answer.

Mutual trust and respect, it is earned … sometimes we are lucky that the two parties meet early on.

It all boils down to how much effort one puts in to find the right contractor.

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Client went with an installer that was R10k less, found out that he installed half the panels on a south facing roof, even though there was ample space on the north facing roof

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Ok but client is fast asleep if they dont even know where the panels are going to be installed.
Long story short, there are lots of chancers out there. Do your homework. Paying more doesn’t always mean better service.

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I’m ashamed to say that I didn’t pay much attention to simple geography when I was contemplating PV.

The installer did. He called me to tell me I didn’t have much north facing roof. I was a bit surprised. He’d used Google maps. I was like “doh”.

I’m not that surprised to hear about a client who doesn’t know which way North is. See my earlier comment about South facing panels.

These things can be a minefield for the lay person. You know that you don’t know, that bit is easy, but how do you know if the expert you hired really is an expert? Sometimes we find out the hard way.

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Caveat Emptor - the Romans coined it back then already.

Other experiences I have had that was “forced” on me:
Curb your enthusiasm … we get an idea and run with it, till we see why it will never work.
Slow is fast and fast is slow … take your time, learn the right questions to ask.
Measure twice, “install” once.

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You actually made me wonder if that expression, Caveat emptor, quia ignorare non debuit quod jus alienum emit, is really from the Romans, so I looked it up. Well, it seems that at least as far as legal matters goes, the expression only goes back to 1603, but in popular use it does go back to Roman times, relating to statues where unscrupulous sculptors would fill up portions with wax. Allegedly.

Anyway… carry on :slight_smile:

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