I have Closed and Unlisted this topic… I’ll spend some time tonight trying to sort it to something useful. If not I will leave it Unlisted.
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Guys I give up!!!
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Let me elaborate to clear my chest. This will be my last attempt to try and convey the message I am trying to.
I dont base my answers above on a single home that I have been living in for at least 20-25 years where i needed to find solutions through trial and error over many of those years. I base my answers on experience gained over a period of 35 years in the industry. I have physically worked on hundreds of thousand of circuits in my life, thousands houses , factories and buildings and maybe only 600 of them while installing.
@TheTerribleTriplet , I dont compare my experience to that of your sparky, but need to mention the following and I won’t elaborate on that.
1: I have the experience and knowledge to split any load you can think of.
2: I have the experience and knowledge to determine the shortest most cost effective route to achive that.
3: I have the time to do it should you require it.
The question is:
1: Do you want to see trunking running all over your place if no other option is available.
2: Would you allow me to chase into your walls if you decide you don’t want to see trunking but still need the load split out?
3: Would you allow me remove halve a square meter plaster from your hallway wall in your R20 mil house to get to some stupidly placed through box build into the wall by some stupid builder to split out one plug circuit.
4: And most of all, would you be willing to pay me more than three hours at R380 per hour if i need to rewire your house to achieve what you want.
Then the biggest question ever.
1: Would any other client be willing to do that.
We have worked on houses up to R40mil with the most expensive tiles and finishing you could imagine where we could not get wires through and needed some surface solution. The client just said, i don’t want to see anything and i wont allow you to cut into my walls. No amount of experience will change his mind.
We have worked for an old lady in the Free state. She had a 1200 VA installed. She wanted the loads split but only had 4 mixed circuits through the house. She was not interested in smart device at the ripe age of 87, but she was willing to pay the almost three days it took us to open every single plug, light and light switch in the house to pull the extra wiring to achieve the required outcome.
We have worked on hundreds of houses that where they extended the house over many years in different phases and most of the wiring were done illegally and in a way that is totally inaccessible for change.
Lastly we have worked on ultra modern homes where they have plastered surfix into the slabs and walls for all the circuits and where the client would not accept any form of visible cabling at all.
Please @TheTerribleTriplet and @Richard_Mackay , the fact that we sometimes uses smart devices does not make us inexperienced , dumb or lazy. I would not mind extra work and time on site and getting paid for it, but I have a responsibility towards my clients. If we encounter any obstacles, we price and offer our clients solutions, they then decide which solution works for them and we implement it according to what they want.
if @Richard_Mackay wants us to hard wire split all his loads and it can not be done in the DB with the existing wiring, we will pull extra cables and get it done, but he needs to understand that the cost to do that is for his account and not part of the normal installation fee unless previously discussed and quoted on.
@TheTerribleTriplet this is the last time ever I will try and explain this concept to you. What you have experienced and the solutions you found through trial and error over many years in your own home does not offer solutions to all the obstacles and problems we are faced with out there.
Your findings might help certain individuals, but as much as I want to, I can not implement your solutions in all the issues we need to solve out there.
I get it, its human to think, I did it this way and it worked, it should work for you as well, no it wont, it might, maybe, maybe not.
EDIT: Why I say I get it. My dad is like you, we would sit in a conversation where someone will explain a problem. “Oh thats easy” He would say " I did x,y,and z" and it worked for me. You guys must just think, its simple. I have heard this thousands of time in my life. One more than one occasion out of frustration I invited him to the problem and asked him, please show me. No sorry, here i cant apply “x,y and Z” because of “u,v and w”. That way he learned to rather say. “In my case x,y and z worked, it might not work for you, but at least look at the options, if it does not work, lets find a solution together”. He learned that his personal experienced might thot be the solution to all problems. He still stumbles, but quickly enough remember the lessons he has learned and then he changes his approach.
I normally tell a client, let me way up all options, give me some time and then we can discuss the way forward.
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You said:
I concurred:
You read, but don’t grasp.
We all do that at times.
But seeing as I’m again the focus of your attention, you trying to explain concepts to me out of frustration, THE worst frustration ever is when recommended experienced installers makes a tentative booking, then simply ignore Whatsapp message closer to the time to confirm, or postpone, said tentative booking.
When one refer clients to them, and they are not even given the courtesy of a callback.
That is bad.
Lets not start that one.
Please let this go.
I have.
I will give no more referrals.
Nor will I bother to ask.
See, when one is forced to go further a-field, one tends to find more Victron installers in Cpt that are highly regarded.
So no sweat.
Sorted.
Lol, reminds me of my house, where you initially thought my garage DB was illegally bypassed, but with three DB boxes, main house, addition house and separate DB for the garage, my wiring was extremely convoluted. Plus, to add a bit of difficulty, I asked you to add two solar geysers, but when Eskom is load shedding, they should not be able to use battery power at all, so you had to add extra relays to this mix. Bottom line, it all “JUST WORKS” and that is what an experienced installer brings to the party 
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Lets play this.
I said i will help you when I am in cape town, at the rate of R380 per hour as per your speciation and only for 3 hours because you feel it cant take longer than three hours to relocate your system. Then you want me to work for the same fee for the guy you refer me too. Not one of you share in me traveling and accommodation cost, non of you willing to do it.
As I told you before, If you want it quicker and dont want to wait till we are there or dont want to worry about cost like that, get somebody local and negotiate your R380 per hour fee with them .
End of story. I will lock this thread now and allow this to hang in the air, you will not play this your way and use my forum to smear my name while you are the one trying to dictate my fees and time spend on your site.
How long do you think it takes us to offer the standard of work we offer? how long do you think it takes to make it presentable and pleasing to the eye.
I had enough of this nonsense. Use and refer who you want, Me and my team and the standard of our work is worth more than the R380 tip you want to force on my.
Edit: Like we discussed in our first conversation, you wanted me to accept the rates of your previous quotes, I said I can do it, but only when we are there. My wife had a huge fight with me for agreeing. I told her hey, its TTT, its a forum member, allow me to do him this favour. The sudden reappearance of load shedding would have forced you to look at other options and i am glad you did. I am not the only approved installer, there are once closer to you, you don’t owe me anything, i don’t owe you. There is reasons outside our control that is delaying our trip to Capetown.
Some members asked me to rather unlock this thread as they still want to talk about the issue. I will reopen it and allow it to play out. I have said what i want to and stick to my side of the story.
I’m jumping in here… I’ve asked Jaco to unlock the thread but request that we try and settle our differences off line. I will lock the thread and could hide it (or parts thereof) if needed.
My comments on the topic (not the argument)…
In Port Alfred (EC) we pay R500/h for an electrician.
2 days solar install is around R20-30K min for labour (so if the rate is R380/h in COCT) then I think you are getting a wonderful deal.
People who know me a bit better can attest to the fact that I’m never malicious, at times I do call a spade a spade, other times tongue firmly in cheek.
We all have our challenges. When we become aware of said challenges in others, we have compassion. We accommodate, we discuss, understand and make a plan.
That being said, how I got into the center of things yet again, boggles my mind.
That I’m peeved:
- installer ignoring a WA (not blue ticked) when client asks weeks later if things were still on schedule after the client has arranged a bunch of people to HODL (Hold On For Dear Life).
- client not being giving even the common courtesy to say “Hey, we are running way late, can you accommodate?” when things had to be postponed.
- then when the client, after dead silence from installer, says don’t worry, I made plan, that message gets Blue ticked and responded on quick?
In other words:
- the client is wrong for asking for a deal, which was agreed by the installer,
- the client is wrong for asking for an update,
- the client is wrong for expecting the installer to a least have give him the common courtesy that things are running late,
- the client is wrong for posting the above, no mention, or alluding, to any installer whatsoever,
- then the client is publicly criticized for pointing out, on a thread about bad installers, that some installers ghost their clients, potential clients, as another bad thing happening out there.
Having bought all the material, DB, breakers, having installed all the trunking, made a plan for the easy moving of the strings, I’m still wrong.
I’m done being a punching bag, “it is my fault”, when other people drop the ball.
Jaco can you work for me for R380 an hour, but you can only work for 3 hours. I will of course than have you answer all my thousand questions of how do we do that and how do we do this and that time you spend answering me will have to come off your R1200 i offered you to move my system.
I will offer your deal with me to a friend of mine and have you install for him at the same rate.
Why dont you answer my messages, I mean I offered you what I think you are worth and misuse you for extra time even after hours, and expect you to answer whenever I want you to.
Mr, sometimes people dont have to answer, or they dont want to or they hope this problem disappears when they dont.
You can chose any option you want, I mean I cant advise you, you are perfect and everything you want or suggest is flawless.
I dropped the ball with you on purpose, i had my reasons and no regrets.
Dont make a mistake, there is many people knowing you very well, how well do you know yourself?
You insult me in your offer, and then come to a public forum and try to smear my name because I refused to bend over. Really??
MArk, time to lock this, this is going to get ugly. this mr perfect is never wrong, never were, never will be.
Thank you.
Wish you had the the guts to tell me straight - you had the right.
I wasted weeks waiting for you.
Then this would never have had to be aired.
@mmaritz , delete all from where it got derailed.
No need to keep this here.
I have Closed and Unlisted this topic… I’ll spend some time tonight trying to sort it to something useful. If not I will leave it Unlisted.
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I’m guilty of this myself. People need to understand. We get so much communication by email, whatsapp, bug/issue trackers, slack (another comms tool designed for the software industry), helpdesk software, and even phone calls. It is not unusual to leave a message unread because you cannot get to it right now.
Then when another question comes in, your head goes “oh S**t, I forgot about this!”, and then obviously it gets read very quickly. Not because you’re an ass. Because you feel guilty!
I’m at the point where I pretty much don’t answer ANY phone calls anymore. If I don’t know you, if I have not specifically added you to my address book, I will not answer. My phone is there for my convenience, not everyone else’s.